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    A question poised by an author.

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    Watari
    roku'dan
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    A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Sun 31 Aug 2008, 1:01 pm

    I'm currently reading a book called 'The End of Faith' and the author asks a rather interesting question and I'm going to post it up here and see how you answer and react

    "What if all our knowledge about the world were suddenly to disappear? Imagine that six billion of us wake up tomorrow morning in a state of utter ignorance and confusion. Our books and computers are still here, but we can't make heads or tails of their contents. We have even forgotten how to drive our cars and brush our teeth. What knowledge would we want to reclaim first?"
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    Kyouri Kai
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Sun 31 Aug 2008, 1:13 pm

    If we had truly woken up in a state of utter ignorance, we would not even be able to know what knowledge we would want to "reclaim", for as far as we would know... we never had any knowledge to begin with.

    But anyway... that's not the meaning of the question you quoted... So...

    Well, actually it is. If I woke up without any knowledge of the things around me, I would first want the knowledge of my existence. I would question that first. Which is the very same question that 98% of the human populous continue to want the answer to even with all the books, computers, cars, etc... probably why most things were invented in the first place: to answer that question - Why am I here? Do I truly exist? What is existence?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:03 pm

    Ok so since no one else has answered this question in sometime nor will I think many will Razz I shall put up pretty much what the author was asking. Now what would you do if you woke up one day and knew absolutly nothing? You have forgotten everything that you have ever learned in this world, what should we reclaim first? While I would agree with you Ky that most people would want to acknowledge their existence at somepoint, but wouldn't there be more pressing matters to tend to at first? Like the ability to find/make shelter/food, communication, walking, reading. I mean at what point when we're trying to re-learn everything do we ponder spirituality and our own self-worth?

    I really think it's hard for humans to imagine this scenario because we have so much knowledge in our heads that we don't think of what would we do if we ever lost that knowledge and had to start over from scratch. I for one would say that when communication is re-established is probably about the time that spirituality and topics of god would come into play as humans try to re-learn all the modern marvels of the world, but that's just my opinion on the matter
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:25 pm

    The problem with this author's question is re-claim. If we had forgotten that we had any knowledge of these things in the first place, then we would not even fathom the thought of "re-claiming" it. Now, if everything, as the author's question proposes, was still in existence, but we merely lost the knowledge about them, then I don't believe we would be wandering around looking for something we already had... shelter, food, what-not... it would already be there. Of course, we may question whether a particular substance is edible or not, and if so, is it safe? Then again, without any knowledge whatsoever, even the question of safety would not apply.

    And forgive me, but the question of 'god' was so not part of my statement, nor was spirituality. It is the question of existence that has plagued even science, so it has nothing to do with spirituality by any stretch of the imagination. It would be however, a viable question to ask oneself upon waking up as ignorant as a doorknob. And that is a personal question, actually, not one requiring to be largely discussed with others. On the other hand, if even speech were forgotten, then I would assume, people would turn out to be just like Dee-Dee on Dexter's Laboratory.... "Ooooo... What does this button do?" In a sense... without the knowledge of what a 'button' is exactly.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:45 pm

    I never said they were part of your statement I said that when communication is re-established that would be the point when people would start to question spiritiuality and god and the such. What I was pointing towards was your question on your own self-worth, when would you actually start to question your own self-worth? Another point to question would be if you woke up dumb as a doorknob, could you even question your own self-worth or would your primal instincts take over to eat? Again even if houses were still around and would you know how to open the door? i don't know So I firmly believe that if I woke up that I would try to figure out how/what to eat, hunting skills would become necessary.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:57 pm

    Hunting skills in a kitchen cabinet, perhaps. Since again, as your author stated, everything is still around. Back in the day, according to the pseudo-sciences known as archeology and anthropology, humans didn't have these luxuries, so yes, if their stomach growled they were willing to bring down a beast 50 times their size. But in this scenario, it wouldn't be mandatory to look for the nearest thing with legs and go chasing after it... unless lust is an instinctual process, of course.

    And again, it also has nothing to do with 'self-worth'. If I woke up without any knowledge whatsoever, AND I was able to think at all, then I would first wonder what the hell? What is this? What is that? Who am I? Why am I here? Where did I, and all this stuff, come from?

    Babies, don't have the primal instinct to go out hunting for food. Yes, if they had the mobility, I'm sure they would go after something to shove in their mouths so as to relieve that not so pleasant feeling occurring in the middle of their body. But... we are not hungry 24 x 7.. well.. most aren't, anyway. So you are assuming that one would wake up hungry. Not necessarily so.

    And you are right, we have no idea what kind of thought processes occur with complete and total ignorance. Mobility is definitely something that is instinctual. Relieving unpleasant feelings is instinctual. But if we can move, and we are not hungry.. what then?

    *EDIT
    P.S. It is my belief, as I said in an earlier thread, that we learn from experience. So, I'm sure once we touched a doorknob and played with it for a whole millisecond, we would know what it did, even if we didn't have a name for it.

    And btw, have you finished reading the book? What does the author believe the answer to be?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Tue 02 Sep 2008, 7:38 pm

    Again I would have to poise the question, if you can't operate it how are you going to use it?? In order to be able to use anything that would be in the kitchen one would have to know how it all works, so thus something in a can would be worthless until humans figured out how to take a rock and bash it against the can to open it up and get the prize in side (much like how primates would have figured out how to open up a coconut for the milk inside) **EDIT NOTE** I'm also well aware that even primates could figure out how to use a can opener given time but using utensils would become yet another necessity to learn, creating tools to help get/eat food.

    I took much of what you said at the end of your response as a question of self-worth, maybe it's the wrong name for it, but when people question who am I, what am I doing here and so on they are basically trying to figure out themselves and I call that self-worth, it may be wrong but that's what I consider it to be at least.

    You are right, I am assuming that one would wake up hungry because typically if you revert back to total and utter ignorance then one would have to assume that the most basic of primal instincts would take over; procreation and surviving. In order to survive you have to be able to fight and to fight you need energy and for that energy you would need food, again I am assuming that this would take place because I'm going under the assumption that the most basic primal urges would kick in and I'm speaking from mostly a male perspective on the matter as I probably could consider the female side which would usually involve nuturing but all in all the basic primitive instincts would all remain the same.

    No I have not finished the book yet, but when I get home I can put what he wrote on this, it's pretty much along the same thing I was writing but his main focal point is on reason vs. religion so his answer and beliefs will differ from mine and yours.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by sharingan09 on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 12:24 am

    When this author says forget everything one day, does he mean everything that we've learned through out our life times embedded into our brains or even things that have been there for thousands of years, like the instinct to look for food when you're hungry or to protect yourself from danger?

    And about that self-worth thing, I think that the moment you start estimating your own worth, you start looking at other peoples worth. So lets say the King has the most worth, then its the nobles and so forth. If we had no memory but only our primal instinct, we'd probably put ourselves in charge of other people so that no harm would come to us right? After all thats how some royalty would have been created back in medieval and even before Christ times.. it wasn't always Democracy.

    But as for the question I think there would be a lot of chaos at first because our primal instincts would make us afraid of strangers, thus leading to violence then war.. but I think in the end history would eventually repeat itself.

    Hope I'm making sense
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 1:12 am

    sharingan09 wrote:But as for the question I think there would be a lot of chaos at first because our primal instincts would make us afraid of strangers, thus leading to violence then war.. but I think in the end history would eventually repeat itself.

    Amen!

    Watari wrote:Again I would have to poise the question, if you can't operate it how are you going to use it?? In order to be able to use anything that would be in the kitchen one would have to know how it all works, so thus something in a can would be worthless until humans figured out how to take a rock and bash it against the can to open it up and get the prize in side (much like how primates would have figured out how to open up a coconut for the milk inside) **EDIT NOTE** I'm also well aware that even primates could figure out how to use a can opener given time but using utensils would become yet another necessity to learn, creating tools to help get/eat food.

    First, you just argued against your own point of 'hunting'. If we have no knowledge whatsoever, how then are we going to even have the knowledge to hunt? Hunt with what? Hunt for what?

    Second, you are heading toward confirming my argument that 'we learn through experience'. Even if an experience is simply through sight... A coconut falls from a tree, lands on a hard substance, it breaks open, something tasty comes out. Later the primate decides to try to recreate that experience for themself.... hence... learning through experience... not simply being a hunter/gatherer by instinct when they have no idea, no knowledge of how to hunt. However, just like hunting... one learns through the desire to fill that empty stomach... surely one can also learn how to open a refrigerator and pull out something less difficult to open than a can.

    Watari wrote:typically if you revert back to total and utter ignorance then one would have to assume that the most basic of primal instincts would take over; procreation and surviving. In order to survive you have to be able to fight and to fight you need energy and for that energy you would need food, again I am assuming that this would take place because I'm going under the assumption that the most basic primal urges would kick in and I'm speaking from mostly a male perspective on the matter as I probably could consider the female side which would usually involve nuturing but all in all the basic primitive instincts would all remain the same.

    Are we even sure that procreation is 'primal instinct'? Sure, animals have babies all the time, but if we wake up alone, because some would not wake up next to someone else, then what thought process would be primal in order for that ignorant person to want to go out, find a mate, and make babies? Again.. it would come from sight experience. You see two dogs, two birds (or more), etc... you wonder what it's all about, you find someone that resembles you, you try it out.

    As for the gender roles... please... those did not exist until religion took hold of people's wanton desire to be controlled. Men are just as innately able to nurture as women (sea horse - birds), just as women are just as innately able to hunt as men (lions - birds).

    All in all, I believe a person's first 'instinct' would be to explore their surroundings and themselves in order to figure out the first primal question... 'what'... and not a level of self-worth, for if one doesn't even understand what 'self' is, then how could there even be a possibility of one contemplating self-worth?

    Self-worth = belief in self: confidence in personal value and worth as an individual person. ~Encarta
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 2:41 am

    sharingan09 wrote:When this author says forget everything one day,
    does he mean everything that we've learned through out our life times
    embedded into our brains or even things that have been there for
    thousands of years, like the instinct to look for food when you're
    hungry or to protect yourself from danger?

    But as
    for the question I think there would be a lot of chaos at first because
    our primal instincts would make us afraid of strangers, thus leading to
    violence then war.. but I think in the end history would eventually
    repeat itself.

    First Paragraph - The Author is speaking on things learned over the years such as, how to drive a car, brush your teeth, work the oven, open a door. Your primal instincts will always be there regardless, the body is programmed in such a way that it will (or should) react to natural instincts whether you realize it or not, body says you're hungry what do you do? Go get food.

    Second Paragraph - I agree, there would be a huge possibility of wide spread chaos, or maybe humanity being as dumb as a doorknob, maybe we'll get along for a short period of time i don't know but yes history does have a way of repeating itself.

    Kyouri wrote:
    Watari wrote:Again I would have to poise the question, if you can't operate it how are you going to use it?? In order to be able to use anything that would be in the kitchen one would have to know how it all works, so thus something in a can would be worthless until humans figured out how to take a rock and bash it against the can to open it up and get the prize in side (much like how primates would have figured out how to open up a coconut for the milk inside) **EDIT NOTE** I'm also well aware that even primates could figure out how to use a can opener given time but using utensils would become yet another necessity to learn, creating tools to help get/eat food.

    First, you just argued against your own point of 'hunting'. If we have no knowledge whatsoever, how then are we going to even have the knowledge to hunt? Hunt with what? Hunt for what?

    Second, you are heading toward confirming my argument that 'we learn through experience'. Even if an experience is simply through sight... A coconut falls from a tree, lands on a hard substance, it breaks open, something tasty comes out. Later the primate decides to try to recreate that experience for themself.... hence... learning through experience... not simply being a hunter/gatherer by instinct when they have no idea, no knowledge of how to hunt. However, just like hunting... one learns through the desire to fill that empty stomach... surely one can also learn how to open a refrigerator and pull out something less difficult to open than a can.

    First off I have no clue how I was arguing against my point of hunting, regardless humans would have the inevitable job of hunting down food, the food in the fridge isn't going to last forever. Human beings will have to learn how to create their own food eventually, that is a given that at some point they will have gather their own food, so learning to hunt would become a necessity there would be no way around it.

    Second I never argued against the fact that humans learn from experience, in fact all animals learn from experience, you watch a cat try to jump up on a high ledge and miss, that cat might try once more but after realizing it can't be done he will move on or try to find another route. Humans do the same, babies learn from experience especially when trying to walk, they find out falling hurts and they try not to fall. I can and always will agree that humans learn from experience so I will never deny that as it is a fact.

    Kyouri wrote:
    Watari wrote:typically if you revert back to total and utter ignorance then one would have to assume that the most basic of primal instincts would take over; procreation and surviving. In order to survive you have to be able to fight and to fight you need energy and for that energy you would need food, again I am assuming that this would take place because I'm going under the assumption that the most basic primal urges would kick in and I'm speaking from mostly a male perspective on the matter as I probably could consider the female side which would usually involve nurturing but all in all the basic primitive instincts would all remain the same.

    Are we even sure that procreation is 'primal instinct'? Sure, animals have babies all the time, but if we wake up alone, because some would not wake up next to someone else, then what thought process would be primal in order for that ignorant person to want to go out, find a mate, and make babies? Again.. it would come from sight experience. You see two dogs, two birds (or more), etc... you wonder what it's all about, you find someone that resembles you, you try it out.

    As for the gender roles... please... those did not exist until religion took hold of people's wanton desire to be controlled. Men are just as innately able to nurture as women (sea horse - birds), just as women are just as innately able to hunt as men (lions - birds).

    All in all, I believe a person's first 'instinct' would be to explore their surroundings and themselves in order to figure out the first primal question... 'what'... and not a level of self-worth, for if one doesn't even understand what 'self' is, then how could there even be a possibility of one contemplating self-worth?

    Self-worth = belief in self: confidence in personal value and worth as an individual person. ~Encarta

    On this half I'll start from the top and work my way down, mating is a primal instinct, sure one would see what other animals are doing and probably want to do that him/herself but one cannot deny that our brains are built with the capacity to help along the mating process with hormones, so thus nature is lending her hand here in the mating process thus making it a primal urge. So all in all the mating process is a primal urge but also needs a hand from experience as the more one does said task the better they can get at mating. It can be one in the same

    As for the gender roles, my apologies I did not mean for it to come off in that sense as I was referring to women being the child bearers, I know women can hunt and in many tribes in Africa the women do hunt while the men tend to the children. But when the child is an infant the mother has to take care of that child or have someone feel the child as men cannot produce breast milk, which if you're not in a 'civilized society' breast milk is all you can feed a child as you cannot just run to the store and buy formula.

    As for the self-worth, I read what you wrote wrong and so that was my wrong doing, I do agree that upon waking up one would want to get a feel for their surroundings as that would be natural for animal to do.

    Now here is what the Author has wrote in regards to this answer;

    "Well, there's that business about growing food and building shelter that we would want to get reacquainted with. we would want to relearn how to use and repair many of our machines. Learning to understand spoken and written language would also be a top priority, given that these skills are necessary for acquiring most others. When in the process of reclaiming our humanity will it be important to know that Jesus was born of a Virgin? Or that he was resurrected? And how would we relearn these truths, if they are indeed truths."

    So really the author never really answers the questions but instead gives further insight to the many answers that one would give, of course he could never name all of them as that would be a long list. But also remember his reason for asking the question in his book was because he's creating an argument against religion in modern society, I asked because I thought this would be a good thought provoking question to ask in general So far I am liking the answers here as it's great to hear other insights, I honestly never thought of waking up and just getting acquainted with the area I woke up in as something to reclaim, but thinking about it more, if I woke up dumb as a doorknob, figuring out where I woke up would indeed be a task in itself.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 3:20 am

    Watari wrote:"What if all our knowledge about the world were suddenly to disappear? Imagine that six billion of us wake up tomorrow morning in a state of utter ignorance and confusion. Our books and computers are still here, but we can't make heads or tails of their contents. We have even forgotten how to drive our cars and brush our teeth. What knowledge would we want to reclaim first?"
    [emphasis added]

    Kyouri wrote:All in all, I believe a person's first 'instinct' would be to explore their surroundings and themselves in order to figure out the first primal question... 'what'...

    Watari wrote:I honestly never thought of waking up and just getting acquainted with the area I woke up in as something to reclaim, but thinking about it more, if I woke up dumb as a doorknob, figuring out where I woke up would indeed be a task in itself.

    "If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence." ~Bertrand Russell

    "Knowledge must come through action; you can have no test which is not fanciful, save by trial."
    ~Socrates

    I try to get to the bottom line answer from the word jump, but sometimes fail to see that it's not at jump but the last word spoken. For it was the last words spoken by your author that I clung to. And before I finished reading your last post, I started responding to it one step at a time, and it had become extremely lengthy. Once I got to your last word (sentence), I erased everything and was merely left with this. Razz


    Last edited by Kyouri on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar and spelling suck at 2am)
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 1:44 pm

    I really think that what each individual considers to be important to re-learn will vary from individual, I think the question poised by the author was left vague on purpose as to make people think about what they value in their own life, what would truly hold meaning if they didn't have it any more. For example if Kyouri ever lost her ability to reason and understand, she would want that back because that's what keeps her going in this world, myself I would want to learn the ability to hunt and gather because I find it to be a necessity to survive. We always will ask the question of "what" regardless of what we do but the main question is, what do we apply that question to first and what would we spend the most time on re-learning?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 2:55 pm

    Please forgive my directness here, but I have to say that is the most succinct statement you have made in any of these debates. And I totally concur!..
    With one question... Could it be then, that there is yet an unknown primal force within us that drives each individual to seek out the answer to their own 'what'? DNA? Cosmological?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 5:00 pm

    I would have to say no, there is no unknown primal force that drives us to individual answers to their own what, in fact it's quite the opposite, the force that drives us to do so is quite known. Experience.

    Let me explain what I mean, I grew up in a small island town of Sand Point, AK, my father was a commercial fisherman from the day he was born to the day he died and I grew up knowing how to fish (give a man a fish and it will feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and it will feed him for a lifetime). Groceries at the store were quite expensive so we relied heavily on living off the land for food (Berries, fish, etc) so my past experiences have drove me to firmly believe that gathering/hunting is a piece of vital knowledge to have if society ever ceased to be.

    Now Kyouri's case will be completely different, while she maybe be able to agree that gathering/hunting would be important, her take on what would most important would be completely different due to the vast difference in experience we have had in our lifetimes.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 10:14 pm

    But... lol... then that would mean that we would still have some sort of knowledge once we woke up. If what you say is true, that "what each individual considers to be important to re-learn", and what the author says, "all our knowledge about the world suddenly disappeared", then something would have to be innately present within us to give each individual the impetus to do what feels right to them. Sorry, I try not to assume what someone says, but take things as they are said... or in this case, written. If your authors says 'all', then I can't assume that the author left the question 'vague'. It's pretty to the point in my opinion.

    With that said, I still agree with you that each individual would go about learning what they felt compelled, or driven to learn, but I respectfully disagree, in that if we all start out as equals in ignorance, how then do we have so many diversified beings? In order to really see this, we would have to go back to the first people... whoever and whenever... and ask, if they were born in utter ignorance, why then were they driven to diversify?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 10:28 pm

    Ok I completely misunderstood the question you were asking Ky I thought you were asking in reference to how each individual responded what made them choose a certain path or what not, like you chose knowing your immediate surroundings and getting familiar with them and I chose gathering hunting Razz

    Ok on the premise that we have forgotten everything then I would think the force that would drive us would be plain ole' curiosity, people and animals are curious by nature, so curiosity would be the driving force then, would it not?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 10:39 pm

    lol.. I think you understood the question. Razz

    Yes, curiosity is a viable culprit... it's what killed the cat, so the saying goes. But, again, what is it that makes different people curious about different things? What I'm getting at, is that there must be something unknown to us, even if it's a scientific explanation regarding DNA, that makes people be different.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Wed 03 Sep 2008, 11:54 pm

    Simple answer, the brain makes people curious, there is no real explanation for it other than that's just how we work, if we're ignorant about something our curiosity peaks and we either A) check it out till we're bored with it or B) check it out, understand it, dissect it and rule it with an iron fist... ok.. maybe I went a bit overboard there but you get the point.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 2:53 am

    lol... "..there is no real explanation for it other than that's just how we work..." That's not a very philosophical point of view. In philosophy there is a reason for everything, and everything has a reason. It's only in the realm of unknown spirituality that lies the 'I don't know, it just is.' Or for the parent or teacher that simply doesn't have the answer to the question. lol So, sorry, no, I don't get your point.

    I know that people will check things out until they either get bored with it or totally understand it. But 'why'? Why do certain people gravitate to certain things while others gravitate to something different? There must be some sort of pull or connection to a person, place, thing, or even thought process, that makes some people go one way, while others go the opposite. Even if it is all in the brain, what is it in the make up of the brain that causes that diversity?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by sharingan09 on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 11:10 am

    Wow you two are really going deep on this.. Lol But I agree with Kyo, everything has a reason now matter how big or small the thing is.. I think something we will never know though is what is the reason for our existence and why exactly we are like this and like Kyo said why do we get fascinated by some things and completely ignore other things, why our minds were built to think in such different ways.

    But the question I ponder is why we are the dominating race, even though I'm a Christian and I "Know" why but why were we chosen?
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 11:21 am

    Kyouri wrote:lol... "..there is no real explanation for it other than that's just how we work..." That's not a very philosophical point of view. In philosophy there is a reason for everything, and everything has a reason. It's only in the realm of unknown spirituality that lies the 'I don't know, it just is.' Or for the parent or teacher that simply doesn't have the answer to the question. lol So, sorry, no, I don't get your point.

    I know that people will check things out until they either get bored with it or totally understand it. But 'why'? Why do certain people gravitate to certain things while others gravitate to something different? There must be some sort of pull or connection to a person, place, thing, or even thought process, that makes some people go one way, while others go the opposite. Even if it is all in the brain, what is it in the make up of the brain that causes that diversity?

    Other than the thousands of little neurons running around in our brains transmitting and receiving information, size of the brain, what side of the brain people use more, innate features, these are all things that would decide what actions one would take in certain situations, if you really wanted to get technical you can go back to the mothers and fathers gene make-up as that would certainly play a role in how a child develops. So I guess one could say genes in this case would be force that would make certain people swing one way and others another way.

    I realize there's a reason for everything, as spirituality goes I'm a little weary pushing things off to spirituality because I do believe there is an answer to everything but just somethings I don't have the answer to immediately or ever will in my lifetime, that's when I would have to say "I don't know, it just does" until I can figure out how it works. Unfortunately we're in a topic that even science has a hard time understanding and proving as the human mind is still one of the great unknown in the universe, the question of why we do certain things is still speculated upon to this day. There's machines to help us understand brain wave patterns, neurosurgeons dissecting the brain trying to figure out the question of "why", so the attempts to find this out is going on but unfortunately the reasoning has eluded us thus far.

    As for Sharingan09 - We'll have to talk about your question in a whole other thread because yea.. that's a whole other argument in itself
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    Kyouri Kai
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 11:45 am

    So DNA would be your response, then?

    And while you're right that what Shar posted is a whole topic in and of itself, it is what I was eluding to. There are only two plausible explanations for all those little neurons firing in a pattern of their own - DNA and Cosmological. I use the term cosmological in place of spiritual or religious, because all in all, I believe science and spirituality to be heading in the same direction... the understanding of the universal connection that we all have as a species and with the universe as a whole.

    I agree that we do not have all the answers, although I do believe, for I have no reason not to, that it is possible the likes of Gandhi, Buddha, Jesus, etc., were able to tap into that knowledge... to me, that is transcendence, and that pure energy flow that surrounds and engulfs us all is what determines why some people gravitate toward some things while others gravitate to other things.
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 1:29 pm

    How about we make this one simple (or it can be more complicated ) then, a belief and ideas control your actions, a belief or idea is what makes you do one thing but completely ignore another, I will start with belief first as I'm not a big belief fan, words are merely words until you believe in them, once you believe in them they become something completely different, they start controlling your actions. As much as I would like to deny that a belief is something that controls our actions it is very much true in this world.

    So if you don't believe in it, you won't act upon it, you'll completely ignore it and in some cases fight against it if you have to. Changing someones belief is hard to do as people kill over a belief, this type of action is very previlant in todays society, you can see it in the religion of Islam, people take their belief structure so seriously they're willing to die for it and kill for it, Christianity is the same way in a sense.

    Now ideas are somewhat a tad bit more simple, and idea can change and evolve, it can move forward, or roll backwards if needed, I really think that keeping an idea about the world is the best way to do things. I like some of the ideas in spiritualism, will I ever fully believe in them, no I won't. Why? Well because like anything in this world that is set to change at somepoint by new revelations or new ideas that emerge, keeping oneself open to new ideas is the best for growth.

    I really think Kevin Smith's movie Dogma explains this point a little bit better than I can

    "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."

    ~Rufus - Dogma

    So one can summerize that an idea drive us to do the things we do, as much as I would love to be able to explain what in our minds creates ideas I cannot do that, except offer up the fact that every facet of our lives are controlled by ideas and beliefs, how these ideas come about is an idea in and of itself, or can be a belief, depends on how strongly you want to believe in the words you create to explain the ideas and beliefs you believe in.


    Last edited by Watari on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added more to it :D)
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    Kyouri Kai
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Kyouri Kai on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 2:29 pm

    But... if we wake up without any knowledge whatsoever, how then can we believe in anything? We know nothing. I'm still referring to the primal 'instinct' here, as that is the subject of this discussion. Beliefs and ideas come after knowing, not before. And we've both already agreed that knowing comes from experience.

    So let me make this simple.... Razz

    If we wake up without any knowledge whatsoever, and our first primal instinct is to familiarize ourselves with our surroundings, what is it that pulls some people to gravitate toward that big funny looking thing with the buttons on it (television) as opposed to others who gravitate toward that image staring back at them (mirror)? And don't go on about how that person wouldn't know what a button or image is... I can't explain it without not having any knowledge at all.

    In my opinion, questions are formulated thus:
    1) what
    2) how / why
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    Watari
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    Re: A question poised by an author.

    Post by Watari on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 3:32 pm

    So what you're describing is curiosity in a basic sense, btw it's my idea that we form ideas in the process of knowing, not after. We form beliefs after knowing, well usually.

    Again I go back to that there is no external force that forces us to go one way or the other, it's in our genetic make up as to what will catch our eye, innate abilities if you will. These abilities will spark our curiosity to research and formulate ideas and beliefs.

    So my idea is that DNA controls what we focus our attention on and what we ignore.

    Kyouri wrote: I can't explain it without not having any knowledge at all.

    This is what's so fun about this all, is that we truely would never know unless we were in that situation and even then, we wouldn't remember the experience unless we were able to tape ourselves doing this actions and some how record our thought process during the whole ordeal. All this really comes down to is a game of ideals vs beliefs, create an idea and you start to believe and defend those words to the best of your abilities, while all the while leaving yourself open to new ideas.

    I can't fully say I agree with everything you have said in the course of this debate as a lot of it still remains to be proven in my eyes and my mind. Spirituality is one of those topics that I have a hard time taking seriously because of the lack of physical evidence pointing towards the exsitence of anything spiritual, which is why I do read anything I possibly can when it comes to spirituality, hoping that one day someone might make me truly understand how spirituality works, I have yet to run across someone that has been able to do so. i don't know

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